How to Silence the Greek
Because of finals I have been unable to dedicate too much time to blogging, but I have been commenting on some other people's blogs lately. It has been interesting, because there have been some words between Greek fascists (I don't mean that all fascists are Greeks, I mean these particular Greeks, or at least one of them, are actually admirers of fascism) and some Turkish bloggers. One thing I noticed was that when I brought up the fact that it was socially acceptable for a man to molest a boy in ancient Athens and Sparta, I got no rebuttals. I brought this up because the constant emphasis of their posts was Greece being a "cradle of civilization" (they were beat to it by China and civilizations in Africa) and Turks being "barbarians." To this charge though, they had not reply. So if you ever get into an argument with a Greek who is getting all high-and-mighty about their ancient civilization, remind them that Socrates would be one of those guys on those Dateline specials if he were around today.
Oh, and as some of you may know, "Greek Love" is a euphemism for pederasty (man-boy sexual relations) or even homosexuality in general.
Oh, and as some of you may know, "Greek Love" is a euphemism for pederasty (man-boy sexual relations) or even homosexuality in general.
posted by Semih Aydin at 1:35 PM
13 Comments:
Semih,
You know the adage about throwing stones from a glass house?
Yes, it is true for a period of time homosexuality was tolerated in ancient Greece, but condemned and punishable in other areas. In "The Laws" Plato labels pedastary as "unnatural."
I would like to point out that you Turks have your own homosexual tradition. Enjoy the read.
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_bath
Tellak (Staff)
Detail of an illustration from the Hubanname (The Book of the Handsome Ones), an eighteenth century homoerotic work by the Turkish poet Fazyl bin Tahir Enderuni.Traditionally, the masseurs in the baths, tellak in Turkish, who were young boys, helped wash clients by soaping and scrubbing their bodies. Their duties were not just as washers, but also sex workers.
We know today, by texts left by Ottoman authors, who they were, their prices, how many times they could bring their customers to orgasm, and the details of their sexual practices. (From the Dellâkname-i Dilküşâ, eighteenth century work by Dervish, Ismail Agha; Ottoman archives, Süleymaniye, Istanbul) They were recruited from among the ranks of the non-Muslim subject nations of the Turkish empire, such as Greeks, Armenians, Jews, Albanians, Bulgarians, Roma and others.
At times the relationship between a tellak and his client became intensely personal. It is recorded that in the mid-18th century, a janissary — an elite soldier in the Ottoman army, also often of European descent — had a tellak for a lover. When the latter was kidnapped by the men of another regiment and given over to the use of their commander, a days-long battle between the two janissary regiments ensued, which was brought to an end only when the Sultan ordered the unfortunate tellak hanged.
There is a difference in these two examples though. In Turkey, the partakers in pederasty were amongst the elite. Surely the ordinary Turk couldn't even afford to go to a Turkish bath. In Greece, however, pedastary was a common practice in all classes of society.
Also important to consider, not all Ottomans were Turks. Janissaries, who you mention as common clients, were almost exclusively NOT Turks. Greeks were actually amongst the most common ethnic groups to be used as janissaries.
However, this is all irrelavent anyway. We do not take pride in the Ottoman tradition the way you Greeks take pride in your mighty Athens and Sparta. I'm pointing out a nasty part of the past Greeks take so much pride in, because some Greeks use this past in an attempt to rationalize their percieved superiority to us "barbarians." We Turks, on the other hand, take more pride in our achivements since the War of Independence rather than our Ottoman past.
And remember, its called Greek Love, not Ottoman Love.
Do you think homosexuality was limited to bathhouses by the elite? That is a naive thought.
You are correct Janissaries were not Greeks, just children kidnapped and raised by the Turks. While not biologically Turkish, they were raised to be essentially Turks. We are talking about Ottoman/Turkish society here.
There is still considerable pride by you Turks in your Ottoman past. Unfortunately, I cannot provide a link for this, but I was surprised reading once about some meeting called "Former Ottoman Territories" with Erdogan.
Not surprising if you Turks do not take as much pride in the contributions of your ancestors as we Greeks take in ours. The overwhelming difference in terms of contributions to Western civilization is obvious to all. Surely you are not going to debate this point.
Ancient Greece was by no means a utopia, but the impact of the contributions will be felt until the end of time.
I'd be more than happy to remove the fact that pedastary occurred from all civilizations, but alas, history is history.
Unfortunately, the term "Greek love" has the connotation of homosexual sex, just as the term "Turkish baths" has the connotations of where homosexuals go for their "Greek love."
Touche.
First off, we're not talking about homosexuality. There has been some of that in every human society. I am talking about socially acceptable pederasty. Which is far worse than mere homosexuality and was practiced widely in ancient Greece.
Second, I never said we had no pride in our past, only that we have more pride in our recent achievements. And we certainly don't use our national pride to taunt other cultures, as many Greeks do. Of course, you Greeks have to reach pretty far back before you have something to be proud of. At least thats the way it seems to me when you use ancient Greece to constantly claim superiority. And of course, I am not a racist, so I will not deny the amazing achievements of ancient Greece. Believe it or not, I don't hate all Greeks, only the ones that set out to disparage Turkey and Turks. Kind of like how many Afro-Americans don't hate whites, but hate David Duke. At the same time, you must admit the contributions of the Ottoman Empire. To not do so would be equally as ridiculous as if I were to deny the contributions of ancient Greece.
Anonymous Greek,
Semih's original post is about all of the sick comments that came from Greek individuals (all because of the Infidel's NYTimes post regarding Istanbul).
You starting to sound like the racist Greeks who posted that crap.
Stick to the original post, PLEASE!
Semih said: "Of course, you Greeks have to reach pretty far back before you have something to be proud of."
Indeed.. and remember that they're too racist or afraid or lazy to consider changing their alphabet to something more compatible with the West. Greece is one of the few hold-outs of Eastern Europe.. Overnight, all of Turkey became illiterate, when the new Turkish alphabet was introduced, but the learning curve was steep. How many countries can take credit for such a radical and successful change?
Semih,
Please reread my original post. The wikipedia article states: Traditionally, the masseurs in the baths, tellak in Turkish, who were young boys, ..
So yes, I was referring to the pedastary as being an accepted part of the Ottoman culture.
See, we Greeks and Turks have this unfortunate aspect of our respective histories in common. Though at least, we Greeks stopped this practice long before you Turks.
And I never said you had no pride in your past. At one point, the Ottoman Empire was a formidable and powerful one. However, I will admit my ignorance in contributions of the Ottomans just as you are ignorant of contributions of the Byzantines. Feel free to enlighten me, but please provide some links and not claims.
Murat,
We actually do not have to go that far back to find other contributions from Greece to Western civilization. From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_Greece:
The gradual migration of Greeks from Byzantium to the Italian city states following the decline of the Byzantine Empire, and the texts they brought with them combined with the academic positions they held, was a major factor in lighting the first sparks of the Italian Renaissance.
Interesting idea about changing the alphabet. However, we Greeks are fairly traditional people. Would you be so kind to elaborate what benefit would the abandoning of our current alphabet bring us? Everyone 40 years of age and younger speaks and reads English fluently. All signs in Greece are at least in English.
I do not see why holding on to one's alphabet (a significant component of language and therefore one's culture and heritage) as being racist, and accusation easily thrown by the next person I'd like to address.
Dear Ms. Gamze,
First of all, I did address a part of Mr. Aydin's original where he states:
One thing I noticed was that when I brought up the fact that it was socially acceptable for a man to molest a boy in ancient Athens and Sparta...
And I showed how pedastary was also an accepted part of Ottoman society.
You stated: You starting to sound like the racist Greeks . I fail to see how my previous posts were in any way racist, but rather proving a bit in irony in Mr. Aydin not being informed of one aspect of his (and yours) ancestors.
I also find the racist accusion amusing since you say in your own blog: "The back-stabbing, greed filled Armenians saw this as an opportunity ..." Rather racist, don't you agree?
You are going to have to do a bit better than that if you are going to debate me. We are approximately the same age. I would expect more from you.
I'll help you with one little item. If you really want to make Greeks angry, point out how they keep electing a bunch of eunuchs to head the government. Read this as an example: http://ahiworld.org/pdfs/PR68VanCoufoudakis.pdf
Semih,
I have to share more thing. Though I do not consider Turks to be European in cultural, religious, and historical terms (and geographical is rather weak), the following article (from a Turkish news source) says Turks have the highest rate of viewing child pornography.
Just had to share.
http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=62049
Anonymous Greek,
I'm just calling a spade a spade. Why else would Armenians revolt against the Ottoman Turks if not out of greed? Were they not traitors?? Hence, back-stabbing?
If you care to answer, kindly do so on my blog. Thanks.
p.s. why would you care to know/research my age? That's a bit freaky.
Semih,
I thank you for your patience as Ms. Gamze and I have now gone off topic of your orignal post.
Ms. Gamze,
I refrain from going over to your blog simply due to the fact that posting replies take effort, and you threaten to delete any posts that you feel were off topic. We differ in our views with regards to how my previous posts on this thread are relevant to the OP.
Why would I take the time to post on your blog and have you possibly delete it? You may not, but I don't feel it is worth my time with that risk.
But to answer your question, why would the Armenians revolt? There were tax revolts as a result of both Turkish and Kurdish tax collectors. You may find Niall Ferguson's article "The Next War of the World" in the Sep/Oct 2006 isue of Foreign Affairs quite interesting in terms of the phenomenon of extreme violence.
People also revolt against oppression and simply occupation. The Armenians were there before your people. It is completely reasonable for any group to seek self-determination, especially when being oppressed. The Ottoman Empire was disintegrating with ethnic minorities seeking independence. What better way to assure that the empire ceases to shrink (or shrinks less) than to kill potential revolutionary ethnic groups as a whole?
With regards to your age, I based my estimation of it purely by your picture. In general, the younger the blogger, the more hotheaded. As people get older, they have a tendency to settle down and realize that though they have more knowledge and wisdom in comparison to their younger years, they have an awareness that they do not have all the answers. There are exceptions of course (I don't expect a certain Fascist Greek blogger to ever mellow). I find having an idea of whom I'm dealing with helpful when entering a debate. I certainly adhere to Sun Tzu's principle of "Know thy enemy and know thyself".
There is a thread on the Infidel's blog regarding the genocide. Perhaps we continue our discussion there.
Semih,
Again thank you for your patience. Out of respect for your blog, this will be my last post on this matter.
Anonymous Greek,
I disagree with your assessment as to why the Armenians revolted against the Ottoman Turks. However, you do admit that they did indeed REVOLT. Hence, the deportation.
The Infidel is currently addressing the Armenian issue and I wouldn't mind meeting up with you there, if you're interested in the topic.
As far as my blog goes...I will not tolerate immature and racist comments. There is enough of that in this world, and I will not give any racist a voice (on my blog).
I'm sure that you would agree. Or at least I would like to think so.
yes,
Who isn't? (Joking, just joking!!)
Sorry guys and gays thats a turkish lie, won't stand in a literature discussion only a turkish one. ;)
From the other hand turkish people had and have a huge pederasty history throught marige of older men wiht 12-13 yo "wifes".
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